7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

so I've got my handguns/assault rifle stashes rounded out and now I'm in the market for a long range high powered rifle. I'm looking to spend a little money here and don't plan on being cheap.

I think I decided on a rifle in .308 (or the NATO equivalent) but there is where I get lost. I really don't have any idea about these rifles. I want something that I'm able to shoot accurately out to 800 yards consistently and I'd like to play around with even longer shots. I want a rifle that is high quality with a low MOA and I'm willing to pay up to 3000 FRNs (without optics) for the best rifle that I can get for the money but as always the cheaper the better!

I don't care if it is bolt action or semi-auto. I've been looking at bolt actions, but I'm very open to a semi-auto (m14? M1a?) if you want to convince me that way..

I want a rifle where I know if I miss my shot its because I missed, not because the rifle missed. I'm looking for more then just your average hunting rifle, but if that rifle will satisfy my needs I'm not opposed to it. This is my most important deciding factor!

Rifles I've looked at are the M24, a Savage 10 FPXP-HS, Remington Model 700, and the CZ 750.

I really need some help and some experiences here! I plan on putting a high quality leupold or similar scope on it, suggested pairings welcome!

Am I going the wrong direction here? Should I be looking at 30-06? or maybe .338 Lapua (though I'd like to be able to afford to actually shoot the rifle after I drop the FRNs on it!)

Basically I need help. This rifle is going to fill the "long range" void in my preparations. I guess you could say I want a "sniper rifle" but that term is mis-used and extremely general...

Thanks!
Big Country

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

I don't consider 308 really a "long range" rifle cartridge. True, its chambered in Camp Perry 1000 yd match rifles, but I think its most effective on game and humans out to 300 or 400 yards. The next incremental step up from there might be the flatter-shooting 7mm Mag or 300 Win Mag for ranges out to 800 yards.

For shot-to-shot consistency, nothing beats a good bolt gun. The platform I would choose would be Remington 700 Sendero or better yet the Remington 40x and mount one of the Nightforce scopes on top. Something in a variable up to 15x ought to do nicely. Anything in a higher magnification will increase mirage effects on a hot day.

http://www.nightforceoptics.com/SCOP..._5-15x56_.html

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Personally I prefer the M1A/M14 family. I have a standard and a match and both have proven very accurate and reliable.
For my match I opted for the Leatherwood M1200 scope. For a professional shooter thats probably the rig to have. For the guy that strolls out on the weekends, maybe not. It is less than user friendly because due to the way the controls work. When I try to adjust the power up I usually cam the mount to the 1200 meter setting. Not the thing to do in a stressed situation. Given what I know now I should have given the Shepard a try. Be prepared to buy a cheek riser for whatever scope you buy. BLACKHAWK makes a good unit.
As far as the weapon {IMHO} the M1A is hard to beat. I have carried that platform while riding dirt bikes in the Montana snow to the south Georgia swamps. I have yet to have a failure that I couldn't traced to a bad mag or ammo.
I am biased however, the FAL may be an approach to take as well. Avoid Century clones as the tend to be s*#@ in my opinion. Some are OK but there are a fair number out there that are absolute crap as well.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

I wouldn't fault you for going M1A but like Silver City said it's kinda pushing it for that range. If you already have an assault rifle I would go for a bolt rifle and scope for under a $1000, spend the rest on ammo, a reloading press, and components. You also might want to check out the very versatile T/C Encore system: http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreCenterfire.php

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

http://www.lrbarms.com/
If you want a semi in 7.62x51 and you have 3k to spend, I would highly recommend an LRB M-14. I used to have two Crazy Horse M-14s built on Lou's LRB receivers that I shot regularly out to 1000 yds. While there are better long range calibers, 7.62 is a good do everything round.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

High end I'd go for an Armalite AR-10, low end would be a bolt Savage with the adjustable trigger they offer now.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

With your accuracy requirements, you will almost have to go bolt action. With your budget, you can get a custom rifle built for you (or used) and leave any store bought rig in the dust. With a custom action or a trued Rem in a McMillan stock chambered in 260 Rem or 6.5x55 Swede, you are good to go at 1,000 yards.

The 1st shot below shows some rigs at a 1000 tactical match last year. The near rifle appears to be based on a Rem action. Below that is a full custom rifle of mine. I've got a number of barrels of different calibers for this one, just take one off and screw another on, takes a couple of minutes. This one is built on a Viper action and and is so much more accurate that anything store bought as to be almost beyond comparison.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

I have a match M1A and a Savage short action bolt gun. Both good out there aways. My personal choice, if you want to go long, would be to have it built on an M1 Garend action. All match grade if you can find it. No optics to get damaged or snagged. Learn to shoot with the sights on it. I like the M1 so well I own three and they won't cost you 3G. If you get one re-barreled, make it a 7.62x51 instead of the .308 barrel to replace the .3006 barrel they come with. That would be my dream rifle if I were younger. I've got several thousand rounds in both '06 and 7.62 NATO. When ammo especially 7.62 started getting hard to find, I could still get '06 from CMP.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

consider,,,I have a remington 700 that is a tach driver even w/ a cheap scope for now til i find a better one. full of potential. i have an M1A. not as accurate but damn close. prints all around the rem700 holes w/ milsurp ammo. but allows for way quicker follow up shots w/ a 10 or 20 round magazine. center of mass hits are center of mass hits. for non-surgical use i'm grabbing the mia . i bought both and still under your price range with room for optics options.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Thanks for the replies and the suggestions. I was under the impression the .308 had an effective range of 800-1000 yards? But from what I'm hearing here is that its not quite that range, though I could make shots that far, they are less then effective?

I like the .308 round because there are many rounds in the caliber and many types of guns that shoot it. I want to have a consolidated collection so I only have to stock a few different rounds (currently 9mm and 5.56, and wanting to add .308 to the mix because of the diversity of rounds available (AP, incendiary, tracer, and many manufacturers of light and heavy ball)

I think a custom rifle may be the route that I take. I need to find a good gunsmith around my area then that I can have a talk with it sounds like. Anyone have a suggestion of a good gunsmith in Arizona?

I think I've decided that I want this rifle in bolt action, and I'll snap up a few semi-autos as my collection eventually grows if time permits.

TomD,

I like the look of the nearest rifle in that picture. I just looks sleek and clean, simple, yet elegant. I think I may pursue a custom rifle on a Remington action if that's what it will come out looking like!

Big Country

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

I'm happy with my Savage Tactical but haven't been able to shoot at anything at more than about 500 yards due to lack of space and I've got others that will do the same thing. I don't really see a use for it in my SHTF scenarios so I may leave it behind if I'm heading for the hills.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Both of my above mentioned rifles are chambered in 7.62x51/.308 thus commonality and if one breaks, well. made a smart ass offer to a friend one day, you get the remy and go to the other end of the 600 yd pasture, I'll take the M1A...........................

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

For the money you quoted, you can buy both a semi and a good bolt. Remember... out here you will have long distances and lots of wind to deal with so a heavier bullet might have advantages and you will have OAL considerations with magazines while you could single feed a bolt if you had to. Although there are a lot of people who say their semi is good enough, I think the general consensus is that a bolt is usually more accurate and at the distances you want every small advantage becomes that much more critical. In addition to the Rem (SPS-T, 40x or other) and Savage, I would check out the Sig and FN offerings. Then go find a M1A or FAL for semi uses. Look at the ballistic charts for energy and drop at 1000 yds then compare the 300 Win Mag and others and you will see where the limitations of 308 start to show up. Although the 30 cal bullets of your choice can be loaded in 300 WM cases, be aware that recoil increases and you can't interchange ammo with your semi. Get a good 30mm scope with enough clicks to the drop you expect to have.

just my .02

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

No personal experience with this guy, but his name comes up alot. Looks like he is very busy until a April-May time frame.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

If you want to sit on a bench and punch holes in paper go with a bolt.
If you want a defensive/countersniper go with the m1a.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Not to belabor a point but it is more than just current consensus, it is absolutely unanimous at every long distance match where an autoloader isn't required by the formula, like in hi-power service rifle.

Go to any long distance (or point blank for that matter) match where people are really trying to win and they get to use any type of rifle they please and not only do bolt actions predominate but there is nothing but bolt actions, period. Creedmore, Palma, F-Class, Benchrest Point Blank and 1000 yard, Tactical matches, Military and Police sniper rifles, all are bolt action.

As to caliber, 6.5 mm seems to be the hottest thing going right now. In 6.5, you just need a round with enough case capacity to launch a 140 grain bullet at around 2700 fps. A lot of people use 6.5x284 and it is a great long distance round but it will burn a barrel out in less than 1000 rounds. The Rem 260 is becoming very popular and the Swede 6.5x55 is superb. Given that these rounds are fairly superior to .308 at 1000, .308 will do it with a heavy bullet.

Do you hand load?

If you want sub-moa capability at 800+, this is the route you almost have to go. Where do you live? Are there any matches there? Go look, rifle competitors love to talk about their gear. You will learn more there in an hour than in a year behind a monitor.

PS: don't skimp on the glass


Edit: saw your post about gunsmiths: good link here http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsmiths.html
you should then go to the home page and explore this great site.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

I had one, a National Match version, and it could be made to shoot if not on the level of a bolt gun. My main problem with it was that the bedding is fragile on them and is absolutely necessary for any kind of accuracy. I've never seen one that doesn't need constant rebedding. In addition the scope mounts suck.

Punch holes in paper huh? Like the US military snipers with their Rem 700 actions or the Brits with their Accuracy Internationals?

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Thanks TomD and everyone else for your suggestions! It has really helped me with my decisions.

I've decided I'm going to get a Remington 700 and have custom work from a gunsmith done to tighten it up. I think this will get me the type of rifle I'm looking for. I appreciate all the help! I'm going to talk to a few gunsmiths and get their suggestions as well (since they will do the work!) on just getting a remington 700 action and building the rest of the rifle around it, or buying the Remington 700 factory rifle and replacing the barrel and whatever other work they think is needed for what I'm looking at.

I'll be asking more questions as I think of them and as I continue this process...

Big Country

(Ps thanks for all the m1a suggestions, it's not exactly what I had in mind for this weapon so i'll be getting this first, but I think I may have to pick up an m1a as well!)

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Be sure to get a new barrel even if it's a new rifle. Lilja, Douglas, Hart, Shilen, Kreiger, Pac-Nor, one of those in stainless. That is where most of your accuracy gains will come from.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

If you are wanting it for hunting, then get a Browning BAR Short-trac semi-auto. If you also want it for defense, then I'd go with a DSArms FAL. I saw an 18" STG-58 for $1,100 at Jensen Arms in Loveland, CO, this week. That is a screaming buy in this market.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

I usually like to shoot a new stick first before I start replacing components. Sometimes, you might just win the lottery and get a tack driver right out of the box. Something else that people forget about is to try as many different brands of ammo as you can afford. This will allow you to find out which one your rifle likes (and not what you like). I had two identical rifles that both required different ammo. The difference between both rifles with the same ammo was about 2-3 moa but when I found out which ammo each rifle liked, they were both sub moa. Harmonics can be a bitch.:smile:

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

For a Semi-Auto, I wouldn't go with an M1A, especially since you guys can't buy Norincos like we can in Canada (yes, I know we are neutered in other ways you guys aren't). If I wanted a MOA accurate, semi-auto, .308 rifle, I would go with an FN FNAR

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

If he is rounding out his prep guns I believe the m1a would serve him well. If he wants to sit at a bench and hit at 1000, the bolt is a better choice.

The odds of having, taking and hitting a 1000 yd shot in a survival situation is slim.
Your trying to make the m1a into one of your competition guns.
Yeah it sucks compared to them at the ranges and targets your are shooting. As a countersniper/defensive mbr they are hard to beat.

On the bright side, He has funds for both.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

On the bright side indeed. I don't know what those custom target model builds run, but if Big Country still has eight or nine hundred left he might be able to get a Chinese M14s in addition to the bolt gun:

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Does anyone have any experience with the new model 70?
Would it be an option to the others mentioned?
http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodin...y.asp?cat=001C

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Go back and read his specs "so I've got my handguns/assault rifle stashes rounded out and now I'm in the market for a long range high powered rifle. I'm looking to spend a little money here and don't plan on being cheap.

I think I decided on a rifle in .308 (or the NATO equivalent) but there is where I get lost. I really don't have any idea about these rifles. I want something that I'm able to shoot accurately out to 800 yards consistently and I'd like to play around with even longer shots. I want a rifle that is high quality with a low MOA and I'm willing to pay up to 3000 FRNs (without optics) for the best rifle that I can get for the money but as always the cheaper the better!"

He says he has the assault rifles taken care of and wants something very accurate to 800+ yards. A M1A, as nice as they can be, simply doesn't fit that bill. If you want something VERY accurate out to to 1K yards, it must be a bolt gun. I have an autoloader, and it would be my weapon of choice out to 400-500 yards, after that I want one of my bolt guns. Semiauto is useless at 600 much less 800.

How many of you guys have shot at that distance?

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Tom, while I agree that bolt guns are the way to go at 1000+ yards, they are making some great advances with semis. I used to regularly shoot out to 1k with my Crazy Horses (about sub to 1 moa guns). While I consider the 7.62x51 an ideal cartridge out to 800 yards, I would not want to be on the receiving end of a good shooter inside of 1200.:smile:

The Knights SR-25 (M-110) is also doing some good sub moa work and is based on an AR platform.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

I went with the remington 700 police in 300 win mag

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/700p.htm

The standard Model 700P features an H-S Precision� composite stock reinforced with Du Pont Kevlar and fiberglass. They'll stay dimensionally stable in any weather and under the worst tactical situations. The stock is laid up around an aircraft-grade aluminum bedding block that runs up the entire length of the receiver. It has a textured, black, non-reflective finish and comes with sling swivel studs.

http://www.snipercentral.com/m700p.htm

The Remington 700P is a very nice sniper rifle for the money. This "Entry Level" rifle is quite capable of shooting .5 MOA right out of the box (.75 MOA is more common). This rifle has all the right features for the right price. It uses a HS Precision stock with palm swells and an aluminum bedding block. The actual action and barrel are the same that are used on Remingtons varmint rifles, with the difference mainly in the stock. The 700P (and its variants) have come to be the standard for police agencies.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

I ended up with a Remington 700 barreled with a 24" 5-R stainless barrel. Remington runs a few hundred of these each year, and they are usually tack drivers with the proper load. Not bad for under $1000. Topped it with a 10X Leupold/Premier Reticles scope that cost as much as the rifle.

I am still doing load development for mine, but I am getting 1" groups at 200 yards; for me, that is very good. Finding a range that can handle more than 200 yard shooting is an issue for me, so I do not get enough practice.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

I decided on the Remington 700 platform. It looks like it is the factory platform that a lot of gunsmiths are willing to work with, so I'll make their life easier and it means they'll have experience with it too.

I think I'm going to buy the absolute cheapest remington 700 that I can get (maybe secondhand at a gun show? if I can find one) since most of the parts will be discarded anyways.

I looked through hart's website and read about hart barrels and no one really had anything bad to say about them so I'll most likely order a barrel from them for the rifle.

I'm also going to go with a McMillan stock. I like their ultralight hunting stock, but I may also get one of their tactical stocks after I talk it over with the gunsmith that is going to do all the work.

Thanks for all the suggestions and the help! I really appreciate the help!

Big Country

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

I agree with your Rem 700 platform. There are tonnes of extras you can put on it. Look at Badger Ordinance http://badgerordnance.com/ for adding a magazine or a Tactical bolt knob. For a scope, look at the products made by Nightforce.

I like McMillan but take a look at HS-Precision http://www.hsprecision.com/, that's what I'll be going with, or if you have the cash, look at JAE http://www.jae100.com/

I like the .338 Lapua, but that is best for long-range counter sniper.

Hope this helps

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

[QUOTE=Big Country;1724990

I think I'm going to buy the absolute cheapest remington 700 that I can get (maybe secondhand at a gun show? if I can find one) since most of the parts will be discarded anyways.
[/QUOTE]

If you buy used, pay attention to the caliber. You will want something with a .473 boltface, which will fit a large number of cartridges including 308. If you buy something originally chambered in 223 or a magnum of some description, the boltface will be too large or too small for you.

The 308 (.473) boltface fits a large number of rounds. Just off the top of my head all these calibers work with the .473 dimension: 22-250, 250 and 300 Savage, 270, 308, all of the necked down 308s like 243, 7-08 etc, 284 Win, 6 mm Rem, 30-06, 6.5x55 Swede, 8 mm Mauser, 280 Win, 25-06.

You have some latitude, a gunsmith can open a boltface within limits and rounds with slightly smaller diameters will work fine. I commonly shoot a cartridge with a diameter of .440 with a .473 bolt with no problem. But just be aware that if you buy something in 223 or 300 Win Mag, you will have to buy a new bolt too. Changing caliber is no big deal as long as you take that into account.

BTW: you will prefer a short action.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Thanks Tom, I'll keep that in mind when I go looking!

I was thinking about the ultralight stock from mcmillan because I think I like the idea of a light rifle (20oz stock...not even TROY OZ! though for the price it may as well be!). I won't hesitate to take it on long hunts or a long hike if it weighs less. Weight is important to me because if TSHTF and this is the gun I end up with I don't want to be carrying a 15-20 pound rifle everywhere I go (on top of a 50lb bug out backpack)...my wife already called dibs on one of the AR-15s for bugging out!

The light weight will tend to amplify mistakes though...correct? Is that the reason the bench rest guys like super heavy rifles?

I really like the .338 lapua round, but its just so freaking expensive! I wouldn't get any practice because I'd always be thinking "damn, there went 4 dollars" every time I pulled the trigger! If I want to do that I want it with 50BMG. You, me, and everyone else here knows the real cost of ownership of a gun is the price of ammunition not the price of the gun! It has to be cheap enough that I want to go practice with it and not worry about how much it costs me every time I do!

Big Country

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Just my 2 pesos worth ,,Tom can Go into it more..

Think Recoil

Heavy stock helps cut felt recoil down
Light stock more felt recoil..

Just a thought..

:wink:

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

ah, recoil...well I shoot my Mosin-Nagants pretty regular, they usually bruise my shoulder even if I HOLD THEM IN TIGHT. Though its not one of those painful bruises that hurt just to touch them...I just bruise like a peach! I can't imagine there is much difference in this and a mosin when it come to recoil (though I have been known to be wrong in the past) but I'm sure you guys will tell me if I am!

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Recoil is pretty subjective. My brother's hunting rifle is a 6 lb (before scope, Rem Mountain Rifle in 300 Win Mag. I've shot it a couple of times but don't intend to any more, but it doesn't seem to bother my brother in the least.

Good stock design and a good recoil pad will go a long way mitigate recoil, the McMillan will have both of these and the Russian rifle neither.

I highly recommend that Big Sky stay away from the huge case capacity magnums, but the recommendation is based on a cost benefit analysis. The only possible benefit is if he finds himself in the position of having to make a 1400 yard shot. The cost in monetary and shootability terms is huge. I wouldn't do it and I'll bet the gunsmith will say the same thing. You need to shoot a lot to develop and maintain proficiency at 1000.

A 308 barrel will last about 3500 rounds, a large magnum about 800-1000.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

Muzzle brakes are very effective for reducing recoil. Depending on design, you can expect ~30% reduction in felt recoil. Trade-off is that brakes are LOUD and some outfitters won't allow their use on hunts, mainly because it spooks the horses.

Add enough weight, a heavy barrel, heavy stock with lead filled butt, a muzzle brake, and you can handle about any recoil.

No fun to carry though...always a trade-off.

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

I have several long range rifles.....I limit my calibers to .308 and 30.06.....I do not need or want anything additional.....these will get the job done out to 1000 yards - no problem....yes, there are more powerful, flatter shooting rifles...but these will deliver the mail out to 1000 yards no problem. Most folks, without a crap load of training and equipment can't make a 1000 yard shot anyway.....

The biggest issue with long shots....is being an expert at range judgement....you can slove this with laser ranging..... The second issue is wind...there is no technology to solve this problem. This is all skill.

You will probably never take or come close to making a 1000 yard shot....you can get pretty darn good at 500 - 800 yard shots....

Either the 308 or 30.06 are perfect for all these shots up to the 1000....and even a little beyond.

I like my Remington 700 PSS in 308......I have a fully accurized M1A that gives both fire power/capacity/semi-auto and perfert accuracy out to whatever you want....this is my number one overall choice for long range fighting......I also have several non-accurized M1 Garands...also very capable out to perhaps 700 yards right off the rack....

You would be amazed what you can do with iron sights and some training....even the little mouse AR15 can hit men out at 300 - 500 yards with just a rack grade gun from a prone shot.

I say get the M1A or a Garand or any good Bolt Gun.....I'm partial towards Savage these days.....their accu-trigger is fantastic and overall bolt gun build is outstanding...i think they are better built than the Remingtons....

Re: 7.62x51mm NATO (.308) rifle suggestions please
 

I bought my Dad a model 70 in .308, its one of the last from New Haven Conn in classic featherweight.The gun is smooth as silk and the fit and finish is beautiful. I haven't seen any of the model 70's from South Carolina yet, but my opinion is you cannot go wrong with the Rifleman's Rifle.:ok: